Self-Determination in Education with Dr Anita Heiss and Lucy Amon

LUCY AMON:
I'd like to extend a warm welcome to everyone joining us for the Academy's Thought Leadership Series webinar on self-determination in education with Dr Anita Heiss. We have strong representation today from government, Catholic and independent schools from prep right through to VCE, the whole way across, as well as colleagues from the Department of Education. Yura, hello, my name is Lucy Amon, and I'm a proud Quandamooka woman from the Noonuccal family group with kinship connections to Minjerribah, which is also known as North Stradbroke Island. If you'd like to know Minjerribah, it means the land of many, many mosquitoes. I'm the Head of First Nations Strategy and Engagement at North Melbourne Football Club, and I'm a third generation educator with experience across teaching in both the independent and government sectors, Indigenous education leadership and board governments, including the Victorian Academy of Teaching and Leadership. As is custom in our culture, I'd like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation, who are the Traditional Custodians of Land where I'm joining from here today in Naarm.

I pay my respects to all Elders past and present, who are our first knowledge holders and our first educators. I'd also like to acknowledge the many different Countries and communities that people are no doubt joining today across Victoria, and extend that respect to any other First Nations people that are with us this afternoon. Before we begin, there are a little bit of housekeeping items that I just wanted to run through. Firstly, this webinar is being recorded. Your image is not visible in the recording, though. The recording and all of the other resources that Anita and I will be discussing today, including some key takeaways, will be shared with all of our participants after and will be made available on the Academy website. There's an option to activate closed captions by clicking the CC symbol in the bottom left of your screen. There is also a chat function as well as Slido, and so they are two slightly different things. Chat function is an opportunity as prompted by Anita that we will use to obviously increase the interaction of today's session.

So, we really encourage participants to use the chat throughout the session. The Slido function, which you will also see in the bottom corner of your screen, is an opportunity for you to be able to ask questions to Anita, and we will come to those questions later in the session. There's also the opportunity to like various questions that people input, so we obviously get to understand what questions are perhaps a little bit more popular than others, so we get to ask them to Anita later in the session. And finally, we will also have a short feedback survey at the end of the session, and we would love your feedback about today to allow us to grow in the future in regards to the Thought Leadership series. So, today's session with Dr Anita Heiss will explore contemporary First Nations perspectives, lived experiences and how these can inform and guide your school curriculum. You will learn how to identify and challenge assumptions and stereotypes, gain a deeper understanding of identity, belonging and the importance of truth-telling in the classroom.

As an Aboriginal person myself and an educator, I often think about how little I saw myself and my identity and my family reflected in the classroom when I was growing up and that's why I truly, truly believe that these types of conversations matter and are so important because they help to create spaces where educators feel far better equipped to help our young Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people feel seen, understood and connected. So, I am so excited now to obviously introduce Anita. So, she is our guest speaker and a fantastic expert on what we are going to be talking about today, so it's my pleasure to introduce her. Anita is a proud Wiradjuri woman. She is an award-winning author of over 20 books, and I have read many of her texts that have had quite an impact on my sense of Aboriginality as well. She is an international speaker with a background in Australian First Nations literature, calling her audiences to action on issues that she is passionate about. Anita's books for young readers include Who Am I?, Our Race for Reconciliation, and Koori Princess.

Her play, Titters, premiered as part of the 2022 Brisbane Festival and the Sydney Festival in 2024. Anita's most recent releases are, would you like to introduce that one, Anita? Dirrayawadha, Rise Up.

ANITA HEISS:
It's Dirrayawadha, it's a Wiradjuri phrase meaning to rise up.

LUCY AMON:
Beautiful, thank you.

ANITA HEISS:
Giving one away today.

LUCY AMON:
Yeah, we are, which I will speak about in a moment. And this is about the Wiradjuri war of 1824, so a very important truth-telling book. And rom-com, Red Dust Running. Anita runs, eats chocolate just like everybody else and enjoys being a creative disruptor, which, I think, is the most amazing explanation of who you are. She's also a very generous person, as we have already mentioned, and she will be giving away one of her texts to an audience member, which our amazing Academy team will arrange after the session as well. So, with that, Anita, a very warm welcome to you.

ANITA HEISS:
Mandaang guwu. And can I please start by saying (SPEAKING WIRADJURI LANGUAGE) (SPEAKING WIRADJURI LANGUAGE) And I said in my Wiradjuri language, which I only started learning at the age of 50, probably with a dreadful Aussie accent. I said, literally, 'Yiradhu marang' means 'a good day'. G'day, my name's Anita Heiss and I have Wiradjuri belonging from Erambie and Brungle Missions. They're both in central New South Wales. I'm a Williams. I acknowledged my own Wiradjuri Elders, my old people, my ancestors, and my Country because that's where all of my being comes from and my stories in particular. And I said Yindyamarra, which is my favourite Wiradjuri word because it has so many meanings. It means to pay respect, to honour, to be gentle, to go forward politely. So, I pay respects to the Traditional Owners of where I am. I'm dialling in today from Mugunjin. You will know that as Brisbane, so the Yuggera peoples. So, thank you for that beautiful introduction as well, Lucy. And thank you to the Academy for inviting me to be part of this conversation today.

LUCY AMON:
No, and thank you, Anita. It's such a privilege to be able to hear First Languages, as we know. First languages... A lot of first languages have been lost and there is such an amazing revitalisation process by many, many, many First Nations people, including myself, but I cannot speak the way that you just spoke then. But it is a learning process and a journey for all involved.

ANITA HEISS:
We are, I think anybody that's online today, including myself, we are all lifelong learners in so many different areas. And I do get a bit nervous when we use the word expert and I know we're gonna talk about that later, but I am learning something new every single day as well. So, I just wanted to make sure everybody understands that about me, too.

LUCY AMON:
Yeah, absolutely. So, we might get stuck into the nitty-gritty and some of the questions that we've been working on together to discuss with our audience. And again, Anita will prompt from time to time to use the chat. As a teacher, I know that really allows us to have more interaction with our audience, particularly in an online setting. So, just a reminder that both the chat and the Slido functions are available throughout the session as well. So, to kick us off, Anita, in your opinion, when students encounter First Nations perspectives in our classrooms, are they seeing living cultures and contemporary experiences or primarily historical narratives? And how do you think we can shift the dial, so students are genuinely engaging with and learning from the world's oldest living continuous culture?

ANITA HEISS:
Well, there are a lot of questions in that first question, Lucy. And if it's OK with you, I'd like to tackle it from a few different angles. And the first one being just a quick story about why I got into writing, why I became an author because it is related to the subjectivity in recording history, specifically around First Nations people. So, in my honours year at University of New South Wales, '91, I think it was, I was asked to do this, I did an honours degree in history on the 1967 Referendum. And as part of my course, I was asked to deliver a seminar paper on a book uniquely titled Australian Aborigines. And it was written by, as were many books in the early 20th century, by someone who'd never been to Australia, but it was based on letters and journal entries. So, there was somebody in New South Wales who would write letters back to Britain saying, "today I did this with the natives," obviously a negative term. "And today I did that with the natives." And at one particular time, five Aboriginal men took this fella hunting, and they left him for a short period of time.

And when they returned only, there were only four men. So, he assumed they ate the fifth one. And we can gasp and laugh at how ridiculous that is. But the reality of that moment is that he wrote a letter back to Britain saying, "the natives are cannibals." Because his perception of that moment was five went away, four came back. So, obviously, they ate the fifth one. He writes a letter back to Britain. The author over there puts this into a book, which becomes a history book of Australia, books about Aboriginal people, that I then get off the shelf at the University of New South Wales, maybe 80 years later. And I had two epiphanies at that point in time when I read this book. To be honest with you, I didn't know what epiphany meant back then, but this is what happened. And I realised that, I'd never heard about anything to do with cannibalism in Aboriginal culture prior to that moment. And I never heard anything again until Pauline Hanson came into power, which is another seminar altogether.

But what I realised was the subjectivity in recording history. And that the history of the world by and large has been recorded by the colonisers. And the way in which colonisers remember and record history is significantly different to the way in which colonised peoples remember and record history. And so the other epiphany I had was that as the first Aboriginal person, well, the first person in my family, I should say, to go to university, I had a responsibility to use my skills to alter that, to change that. And so now I'm doing historical fiction and so forth. So, for me, it's about being conscious of the lens of those recording history or retelling history that matters, as does the language used. And my students would say to me, I taught at Macquarie, I taught Indigenous Studies 101 back in the day. And my students say, you're saying we can't read books by white people about black people? And I said, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying be conscious of the lens of the author. An example I always give is if I wanna learn about farming, I'll buy a book by a farmer, someone who's worked the land, not a book by a stockbroker.

So, to me, it's quite as simple as that. And we're talking about perspectives and self-determination in the classroom. And that is about giving us a voice in that space. So, I wanna just talk really quickly about language that's used and some terminology. And this is hopefully unpacking some of your question. So, pre-history in an Australian context is usually used, generally considered history before invasion. And for me, it brings with it this idea that nothing happened on this continent before the British arrived. And of course, we know that's not true. We often hear the term Aboriginal history as well. And that history is usually relegated to negative moments in Australian history that involve us, Mile Creek Massacre, the Stolen Generations and so forth. It's important for educators to remember that everything post the planting of the Union Jack in 1770 is Australian history. Aboriginal people didn't massacre themselves. We didn't write the policies of protection and removal or assimilation.

This is all shared Australian history. And that is the truth that needs to be embraced in the classroom. So, truth and subjectivity, they're very much the same. My truths may not be the same as your truths, but there are facts that are also recorded that need to be shared in the classroom. And I just remembered another quick story. I'm an advocate for a national curriculum because I've taught in schools around the country and I can see the differences in knowledge and understanding when it comes particularly to basic demographics of Aboriginal people, where we live today, how we live and so forth. But we were teaching Stolen Generations in New South Wales in 2000, 2001. I think I wrote a book about 2001. I had an educator up here in Queensland only a few years ago come to me at a session I was doing at the State Library, teacher from the Gold Coast, who told me they still did not teach about the Stolen Generations in their school. And what that told me was that somebody in that space, in that learning space, was making decisions about what their students, black and white, were learning.

And so that is also problematic. I just remembered that. In terms of contemporary history, it's generally regarded from 1945 onwards, but I always, when I think and when I talk and when I write about contemporary history, I consider moments that are right up to five minutes ago. And if we got together tomorrow, everyone who's online, Lucy, Sophie, Travis, and all the educators online, and I asked you all, if I gave you five minutes and I asked you to record today's session, the history of today's session, I guarantee you every single person online right now would record the session differently. There are facts you could not change, that it's Wednesday, it's now 4pm, there's X amount of people online, this is the topic of discussion. You're all hearing the same information, but it is the way in which you interpret that information, your reactions, particularly your emotional reactions to my words, and that's what makes your experiences of those facts subjective and how you record those experiences as subjective.

So, with that in mind, I'm wondering how many people online remember Cathy Freeman winning gold in 2000? Most people my vintage know where they were, they know who they were sitting with, they know how they felt when she crossed that line, or even when she was going through the race. So, I'm wondering if people could put in the chat box one or two words to describe that historical moment in time, and we will see through that one simple example how many different ways people can remember and record the same experience. Some of you may have even been at the stadium, I often meet people who were volunteers and so forth. I know where I was, I was in Canberra. But for me, Cathy Freeman winning gold in Sydney is a positive moment in Australian history in terms of solidarity. It brought the nation together in celebration of success, but it's also reminded to me that when a blackfella does well, everybody claims us, right? But when an experience is negative, it's our own issue to deal with and engage with.

So, if we talk about statistics related to mortality, incarceration rates and so forth, black deaths in custody, that is somehow a black issue. These issues become ours to manage. With that in mind, I'd also like you to consider Adam Goodes for a moment. And Victoria is an AFL state. I'm sure you all remember him being booed even though he was Australian of the year at the time. And for months and months on every oval in this country, he was racially harassed and booed. Why, if we look back at those two different moments in history, why was it that Cathy Freeman was embraced as everyone's darling and Adam Goodes was turned into a villain? Though both of them were the epitome of Indigenous excellence, ambassadors for our people. How, I think these are things I'd like people to think about generally, regardless of whether you're a teacher of history or not. How are both these moments in our shared history, contemporary history, remembered, recalled and re-imagined? In fact, seeing as you are in Victoria, if you haven't watched the final quarter with your students and unpacked and discussed the racism around that moment in history, then you absolutely should.

You will be getting a handout with all the links to all these things as well. Because in a contemporary sense, we're often told that racism isn't as bad as it was on the frontier or during the first point of contact and invasion and colonisation. And I think we're talking about, I wanna focus on Indigenous excellence, but you cannot also ignore the fact that racism is experienced by our people today. So, my suggestion through all of this is always being conscious of the lenses we are reading, writing and teaching through and the language we use. I think it's also important at the outset to consider the language and terminology that has come from the past, but I still hear it being used for First Nations peoples today. How we are expected to remain static in a contemporary society and that the more that we change, the less authentically Indigenous we are. So, for example, when Western societies evolve, it's called modernisation. When we evolve, we're told we're having cultural loss. Western societies have development, but when we develop, we're told we're experiencing cultural disintegration.

Western societies are allowed to progress, but when we do, we're told we're trapped between two worlds. We're not allowed to learn and grow and change. Western societies become cosmopolitan, but we're told we're being urbanised and losing touch with our roots. Bearing in mind, a third of our population live in urban centres. Western societies become multicultural, but we're apparently becoming culturally contaminated. Western societies are allowed to adapt a culture, but when we do it, we're actually told, well, you're becoming that culture. You are becoming white. You know, you, me as an author, but you're publishing and doing things in a white world. You know, your tradition is storytelling. I want my stories to reach the world. You know, yes, I publish books, but all of a sudden, you're becoming a white person because you're functioning and working and producing in a white way. Western societies are often allowed to have one identity with many heritages. So, I mean, I could ask people to put in the chat box right now who identifies as Australian, but has other heritage in their family.

When we say, when I identify as an Aboriginal person, I'm told I'm part Aboriginal or half-caste because I have Austrian ancestry as well. So, we are not allowed to have one identity with many heritages, but non-Indigenous Australians often do. I never hear Australians say I'm half-caste Australian because my parents were born in Greece or Italy or English and so forth. So, there's different languages and rules, and I think it's really important to be conscious of those things. I think the power of language to create identities, to position us as First Nations peoples in a contemporary world is quite extraordinary, but it can also be quite debilitating. Now, I know I'm talking a lot, Lucy, but I'm gonna stop soon, I promise. I'm just, I'm trying to get as much out as I can. And welcome to everyone who's joined us since we've already started. So, I think educators need to be conscious of their own bias and expectations in the language that perhaps they might use in their everyday life that can be brought into the classroom.

And as I say, I don't get critical of people if people are trying to learn. We are all on a learning journey. I also know that introducing students to current demographics and our own definitions of identity is key. And the piece I've just spoken about in terms of Western v First Nations peoples, that is in my book "Am I Black Enough for You?" Which, you know, which was about unpacking or simplifying identity specifically for educators. So, one exercise I've used over time is a slide of Aboriginal people. Lots of images, mainly friends and family, all different shades, shapes, sizes, ages, careers. Sometimes there are people who are well known to the students. And the point of that slide is that I want students to see the diversity in our contemporary context. It's easy to do today with so many artists. Any teacher could do this in their classroom. So many artists, musicians, sports people, media personalities that are known to young people today. It's important for students to see us the way we see us, which is a reason why I write contemporary women's fiction, to write us into a literary landscape as three-dimensional women in ways we don't otherwise appear in Australian literature.

Now, in terms of looking at demographics, for example, where we live, as I mentioned, mainly urban centres, the Australian Bureau of Statistics has an entire portal, as I hope many of you'll know this and use this, focusing on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. It's important not just to look at us through a deficit lens, but also one of Indigenous excellence. There are stats on how many of us are business owners, how many currently are at university and/or have postgraduate degrees. I mean, I was, I think the 13th Aboriginal person to graduate with a PhD back in 2001. And now, we have hundreds of people with doctorates. I think we need to start replacing negative stereotypes with positive stereotypes. And if you, for example, teach science, look at the incredible work and share it in your classrooms around Aboriginal astronomy being shared. If you're a maths teacher, check out the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Maths Alliance, which is creating new ways of teaching and learning maths by connecting mathematics to Aboriginal and Torres Islander histories, cultures, and languages.

If you're an English teacher, look at the number of award-winning authors we have across genres, use our books. This is how you embed perspectives, our perspectives into your classroom. Many of these resource come with free teaching notes. In fact, if you have capacity, invite a First Nations author to your school to speak at assembly or run a writing workshop, not just in NAIDOC Week or Rec Week, because most of us are busy during that time. But any week of the year. Every year I work with Catholic education in the Bathurst Archdiocese. And I spend three to five days doing school visits. I call it my Week of Joy for the year. Students, they're a mix, it's the whole class, it's not just First Nations kids. We, kids brainstorm sacred sites around the world, and then they write about their own sacred places. We create characters. We work in groups and create performance pieces on things that they choose themselves around First Nations peoples and cultures. I've also done this with teachers as part of PD, academics and uni students.

For secondary school educators, I also suggest you watch one of many, there are dozens of TEDx talks by Indigenous Australians talking about everything from identity, sameness, protocols, and so forth. So, this is how you can bring our voices into your classroom, watch TEDx talks, and then unpack it with your students. I'm gonna give you links to those talks. I'm gonna take a breath and a sip of water right now, Lucy. I'm sorry.

LUCY AMON:
Fantastic, Anita. Thank you so much for that wisdom. There's a few points that I wanted to touch on before we move on to, because there was a lot of wisdom that you shared. But just referencing the chat, there are a number of people that have sort of referenced those resources 'cause you obviously listed so many just in your first response. Yes, we will definitely collate all of the resources that Anita has shared with us is, you know, referring to and prompting to at a later time. So, please don't feel like you need to be jotting everything down. This is your chance to very much sit and listen to the wisdom that Anita is sharing. And I did wanna point out that someone referenced the play 37 in regards to Adam Goodes.

ANITA HEISS:
Yes, of course.

LUCY AMON:
I've seen it. I actually took our football club, went and saw it because of obviously the important connection to AFL. And I couldn't recommend that play more. It was a wonderful observation of the racism that exists in football, but also more broadly in Australian society. And I can personally relate to what you mentioned in regards to your Austrian history, Anita, which I didn't know. I also have Austrian history, through my father's side, my father.

ANITA HEISS:
Wow.

LUCY AMON:
Yep. And the point that I wanted to bring up is that whenever I have obviously shared my cultural background, the only part that gets questioned is my Aboriginality. I will always get questioned in regards to defining whether it be a percentage, often, of what my Aboriginality is, but I wouldn't, I have never, never in my memory have I been questioned in regards to my Austrian descent and I share both equally.

ANITA HEISS:
Just on that, it's interesting because I think the only person that ever had a right to question why I identified as Wiradjuri was my dad. And he never did that. And when people questioned me, I say, well, I was socialized in Australia, I was socialized at the age of five. I was called Abo, boong, coon (UNKNOWN) and coco pop walking to and from school. So, I was told as a 5-year-old by white people, this is who you are. And this is where language and this idea that non-Indigenous people have the right to do this. So, one breath, in one breath, you are a dirty ABO, and the next breath they take, they give you that identity, and then they take half of it away. It's like, but you're only part, you're only half-caste. And that this is, this is a real experience. And you still see, particularly online today on social media, there's been a rise, obviously, of racism, particularly since post-Referendum that our students in particular are facing. So, I think there is a responsibility in the classroom for teachers to be conscious of that.

And if we go back to the Adam Goodes stuff, I mean, I really, really feel quite strongly about Victoria in terms of that racism because the AFL is a Victorian game. So, I guess, though, it happened across the country, but I feel very strongly that there is a huge responsibility for Victorians to own that space and to work in that space.

LUCY AMON:
We'll move on to the next question. I think it's a really important linkage that you're, we're talking about in terms of identity and questioning identity, because our next question is very much obviously in regards to how First Nations young people see themselves. And so, why is it so important for Young First Nations people to see themselves, their cultures and their communities reflected in their learning? As I mentioned, it's not something that I grew up with in my schooling journey. And I was born in 1990, so it's quite recent. So, you know, how does that shape their... I want you to sort of unpack, if possible, how does that shape their confidence, their engagement? And just their sense of belonging at school when young First Nations people can see themselves.

ANITA HEISS:
Of course. I mean, I was born in '68, so we had even less. We had SRA cards and so forth. And I knew more than the teachers, so I always got As and A pluses when I was at school. But so, there's a well-known saying, Lucy and you, everybody online will know this. You can't be what you can't see. And so, that is for life in general for everybody. But for me, it also speaks to the role of literature and the importance of using resources that reflect the life experiences of First Nation students. Just as young, young boys growing up need role models in their reading and in their teaching, so do brown kids, generally. I write for young people because I want our kids to have books where they can see themselves on the page, their life experiences, their skin tones, their families and their realities and their ways of having fun, their diverse experiences, whether it's La Perouse or it's in Cowra. And I want all Australian students from all backgrounds to have diversity in their reading and to be able to connect with other students through the same things they like doing, which, you know, this is what Aboriginal kids or First Nations kids need to see in literature as well as do other Australian kids that, you know, whether it's playing football or skateboarding or fishing or hanging out with your friends or drawing or going camping or whatever it is, that there may not be a cultural barrier to that that we... We live in a society where we talk about difference all the time instead of actually looking at what connects us as being the same as human beings.

So, for me, there's a difference between celebrating diversity and separating things out. And I want the experience of learning for all Australian kids to be inclusive. I've worked with Aboriginal kids in remote communities and I've worked with gifted and talented Koori students in city schools. All of them need relevance in their reading. And if we want to encourage our young people to read, to build their knowledge in any area, and to inspire them to keep reading, we need to be making the experience one that is inviting and enjoyable, and they need to see themselves, their experiences, and their lives of the pages of books. I've written two books with the kids from La Perouse Public School many, many years ago, and one of them is on curriculum now. And I have bumped into those, those kids, and I've heard from teachers when they went into high school of how proud they were of actually being able to work on a project and learn about how to record a story and write about their own lives.

The ILF does amazing work. We go into communities and these kids are writing stories that are about them and their life in community and so forth. And there is a level of pride. It is about self-esteem. Of course, it's about building literacy levels, but it is also about saying your stories matter as well. We have a wealth of children's picture books. Many are through Magabala, but we have a growing list of YA titles as well. I'm gonna give you a few titles that you can use in your classrooms so that both First Nation students can feel pride in their identity, not be shame, but feel strong and proud, they can feel seen, while other students get to enjoy and learn from some extraordinary storytelling as well. So, you'll get this, but if you haven't heard of Jared Thomas, Nukunu author, he's written a series with Patty Mills. I often have teachers saying to me, "Oh, when I set an assignment for my students about anything to do with Aboriginal people, they just write about sports people." We can marry literature with sport.

He's also got a series called Uncle Xbox through Magabala. He is your go-to author, especially for young male readers with some coming out, some valuable coming of age work. And so, you'll get a link to him. Allanah Hunt released a debut novel this year called "Forever & Ever". It's a gritty, fresh Australian story with a Romeo and Juliet themed love story at its centre. Jasmin McGaughey, she's the author of "Moonlight and Dust". And we're talking about, these are contemporary stories, right? An intriguing... This is its pitch, an intriguing, fast-paced debut YA fantasy novel featuring a 16-year-old Torres Strait Islander girl called Zillah. So, we don't have a lot of Torres Strait Islander texts. So, this one is a must-get. She's caught up in a world of an exclusive high school where there's parties and her sister gets into some trouble. So, this is about true friendships, dark secrets, and illicit magic. So, I've read that. Lisa Fuller has got a new book out called "Washpool". It's promoted as a transportive, middle-grade fantasy adventure.

Many of you will have heard of Gary Lonesborough. He's got four novels out, but his first novel, "The Boy from the Mish", was a compelling story of first love and identity and the superpower of self-belief. That's also a coming-out novel. Most of you'll have heard of Boori Monty Pryor, who's been around forever. He's got a huge body of work, children's in YA, plus a memoir, "Maybe Tomorrow". For PD, I absolutely recommend reading that. He stories are about finding strength within a... to deal with challenges and his skills to create a positive vision for the future. His goal is so positive, even when he is talking about serious issues. He really wants to create positive visions for both Indigenous and non-Indigenous kids. I have many of his titles for primary and secondary schools as well. Now, there's a resource, you will go down a rabbit hole. I'm gonna give you the link. It's called BlackWords. If you haven't seen it already, it is the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander writing and storytelling dataset of AustLit.

It's the only dataset of its kind in the world. It provides descriptive records and works of creative writing related to children's literature, adult, YA, drama, screenplays, poetry. It also includes nonfiction, biography, autobiography, memoir, historical works and so forth. There are teaching resources, literary trails, a calendar of events that links you to works that are by First Nations authors, because when we're talking about the self-determination and our voices in the classroom, we're not talking about books written about Aboriginal people. That they are Aboriginal studies. We want First Nations authored works. There are currently just under 8,000 First Nations authors indexed into BlackWords. I take pride in saying I can find your book on almost any subject, maths, science, spirituality, land by a First Nations author in BlackWords. There's 29,000 works index you can search by, you can search by nation. So, I could go in today and I could search BlackWords by Jagera and what would come up were authors who identify as Jagera authors.

You can search by author name, you can search by title of a book. You can search by whatever theme you are teaching in the classroom. You can search by data publication and more. This is a one-stop shop that I love to recommend. It is subscription-based. There will be some schools that already have Austlit, I'm not sure about... I know in Queensland and New South Wales, I believe the state library has got a subscription for all public libraries. But there's ways around that. There's also a lot of work that is available that's not behind the paywall. So, absolutely check that out. And I think looking at BlackWords and looking at some, using works that have been created by First Nations developers and authors and so forth, will assist you in making your classroom inclusive and enriching for both Indigenous and non-Indigenous students. I'm not sure whether that answered your question, Lucy.

LUCY AMON:
I mean, very much so. And I think Anita, your point that really struck me was the difference between Aboriginal studies, books about mob, versus books written by First Nations people and that concept of the Aboriginal studies versus self-determined writing and literacies. And so, I think that's a really... And the other point that I wanted to mention is the power in telling your students your stories matter, your people matter. And your stories matter would, for a young person to be able to hear that from their teacher or from someone within their school setting would be powerful. So, if there's a takeaway from that response, I've double underlined that particular quote and I hope that other teachers might take that point away and to be able to use that within their classroom with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander young people. So...

ANITA HEISS:
And I hope, you know, people can be putting in the chat box also any books that they've used in the classroom that they recommend for other teachers because we don't all need to reinvent the wheel, we need to be sharing what's worked or maybe what hasn't worked. And in terms of this, Lucy, this, the importance of our voices being in the classroom, people used to say to me for many, many years, why can't I read... and there's no disrespect to Henry Reynolds. He's done extraordinary work. And we've been acknowledging that. Why can't we read Henry Reynolds until an Aboriginal person writes a textbook? And it's how we value what's written. And I say like, or a history book, our autobiographies are our history books. So, we need to shift the value that, you know, the worth of the genre as well. So, we can learn from theater, we can learn from historical fiction and people read and learn differently, which is why we have to be looking across genres for particular different audiences and students.

Some students wanna learn through poetry or through song, which is, I guess, poetry to music. There are many ways to teach. But again... Preferably using our lenses.

LUCY AMON:
Yeah, absolutely. And if I could also chuck another book into that, the book by Anita, 'Growing Up Aboriginal in Australia', I think, would be a fantastic resource for all educators to read. It was a text that really allowed my identity and myself to be seen because it really highlighted how every person's identity is so different in this country. But that is also a fantastic book in terms of starting for educators for that concept of unconscious bias.

ANITA HEISS:
Well, I'm glad you raised that because I have failed to do that. 52 separate stories, all non-fiction, coastal, rural, remote, city-bound. The youngest contributor was 16. The oldest contributor was Noelene Brinkworth from Cairns. We've got sports. We've got a few high-profile people, but generally they were just people saying this was my experience growing up. Most of these people didn't know each other, but there were common themes. Interestingly, one of the common themes was racism in education. And growing up Aboriginal Australia, I've done a lot of...

LUCY AMON:
Did she black out for you? Yeah, we've obviously just lost Anita. We might just take a moment of pause just to check if everything's OK on her end. Thank you, Anna. That is a fantastic resource as well, The First Scientists by Corey Tutt as well. I've got that in my kid's library at home. We're just following up with Anita, so just hold tight. Thank you. Just while we're checking in with Anita, I might just come and have a look through our chat. There are a couple of questions that hopefully I might be able to give some answers to as well or to give some insight. So, Claire, so great to pause and reflect. That is a really good point. Thank you so much. And how you are currently using your influence, how might I use it more courageously to create a sense of belonging, dignity and equity for others? And courageously is a really... I think it's a really great term to use because I do think... And we will unpack this a little bit later on with Anita in regards to the fear that often teachers might experience and being courageous to be able to include these in the classroom from a First Nations perspective.

So it is something we will unpack a little bit later on with Anita and get her insights on that. But I think courageous is really important... because we do have to be courageous to be able to suggest a particular text when we're in our department meetings and being able to put forth, you know, I want to use this text, or from a science perspective, I was a science teacher, I want to be able to explore perhaps the eel farming at Budj Bim out on Gunditjmara Country when we're talking about ecosystems, for example. And it does take a lot of courage to be able to bring these ideas or these texts to your department leads or to your teams within a school context. So I do think that was a really important word to use. And I would encourage anyone to have the courage to be able to do that. I'm just going to quickly go through the chat whilst we're here, whilst we do have a moment of pause, just to see if there's any other concepts or questions that I can perhaps help with or give some insight to.

I noted there was a question in the Slido from Tika. Hope I pronounced your name correctly. That you mentioned your daughter is Wiradjuri and you'd love to know how you started to learn your language and point out to her. That was obviously directed to Anita. I will get her to obviously respond to that because her insight and her process might be different to mine, from a Wiradjuri perspective, but the way that I'm starting to try and learn the language of my ancestors and my grandparents is through a dictionary. And we're very lucky that, obviously, our language was oral. But the way that it has been recorded by our communities is through a revitalisation process, being able to listen to past recordings of our ancestors. And those recordings have obviously been put into a dictionary, and the language that I speak or I'm trying to learn and speak is the Janday language of Minjerribah of North Stradbroke Island, or more so the Quandamooka area, Moreton Bay area. And so I'm using a dictionary.

A lot of communities might have dictionaries or recordings of ancestors or language revitalisation experts as well. So that's perhaps a path that you might like to explore with your daughter from a Wiradjuri perspective, but I will obviously get Anita's insights as well when she rejoins us. I'll just jump back into the chat. This is a great one from Victoria. New to Australia, so starting at a low knowledge level. And that is OK. We all start our journey somewhere. With science, as I mentioned, I was a science teacher, science bio. How do we know that the resource is accurate? Will we cause problems if we talk about ancestors who have passed away? And how do I know you're not committing cultural taboos? Really fantastic question. And again, I think we'll have a moment to unpack that a little bit later on when we do talk about with Anita the concept of fear that a lot of teachers have when teaching First Nations concepts, but I'll try and go through how do we know that the resource is accurate.

And I think, as we do with any resource from a teacher perspective, doing your due diligence in determining where that information has come from, perhaps where that article has come from, ensuring it's from reputable sources. I think as you grow on your path and perhaps wherever you might be located in Australia, connecting in with community members is also really important to be able to make sure that you are sort of getting accurate information from your local community, from your Elders, from your knowledge holders. So I think just as we would with any other resource, making sure that we are sort of doing our due diligence to making sure that that information is reputable. And I think this is something we'll definitely unpack more with Anita, but talking about bringing First Nations voices into the classroom doesn't necessarily always have to be through someone physical. As Anita has mentioned, being able to bring First Nation voices through literature. I would often bring First Nations voices in through TEDx Talks, or perhaps using certain articles from a science perspective that have been written.

There's lots of resources, fortunately, that are available through the internet from reputable people, through reputable sources, but also, like I've mentioned, leaning on your local community. In regards to ancestors who have passed away, that's definitely a bit more of a sensitive area. And there's definitely cultural protocols that come along with that. And those cultural protocols are often in regards to images and names. And so you might often see, if there is something out in the public space that has been perhaps recorded or written or whatever it might be by a First Nations person passed away, it will always be in the sort of public space with a disclaimer. And obviously, that disclaimer in regards to cultural protocols is mentioning that this is being shared by a person who has passed, you might see an image or a name. And that is obviously alerting First Nations people to that fact. And I would always encourage teachers, if it's in the public space, then it's often the family have approved for that to occur.

However, I would always be mindful that if you do have First Nations people, children, young people in your classroom to be checking in with them before you might share that or read that, whatever it might be. So I hope that that, Victoria, addresses some of your questions as well. Megan Cope is a fantastic artist. Yes, she is. Might just take a moment of pause just to check in how we're going with Anita, if that's OK. I'm just going to keep going through the chat just to see if there's any other particular questions that I can help with in the meantime. If you do have any questions, feel free to obviously put them into the Slido. And I can... Alright. I think she's on her way back. I can see Anita's name pop up on my end. Thank you, Marcia. Nice to see you.

ANITA HEISS:
Hello. Look, this is why I talk fast, to get everything out quickly. Now, we lived without...

LUCY AMON:
Might just pause you for a moment, Anita, because I think you might just be in the back end. Or is she back in with me? Yeah, fantastic. Can you see her? Great. OK, Anita, you are back.

ANITA HEISS:
Sorry about that. Like I was talking and then you disappeared. We lived without PowerPoint and Zoom for tens of thousands of years. So I hope we didn't lose people. I could see you talking. OK, let's go.

LUCY AMON:
There was one question that I answered on behalf of you, and I gave a little bit more of the insight in regards to the revitalisation and learning of my language, Anita. And one of the questions was specifically in regards to Wiradjuri language, her daughter is... Yeah. And her daughter is a Wiradjuri young person. So, maybe quickly, if you'd like to give us some insights about how you've learnt your language.

ANITA HEISS:
There's a couple of options. We're very, very fortunate to have Uncle Stan Grant as a language teacher and he... Oh gosh, I'm just terrible. I forgot the other gentleman, they put together. We have a whole lot of resources, language resources, Wiradjuri dictionary language, grammar, colouring books, song books, CDs and so forth. But there is a certificate, a grad cert run out of Charles Sturt University in Wagga on Wiradjuri Country. It's a residential course. So I did that over two years. And hundreds of people have gone through that already. Uncle Stan doesn't teach anymore, but his proteges are in there teaching, and we are so fortunate to have that. There are also Wiradjuris taught at... which won't help people in Victoria, I believe at the Eora TAFE in Redfern. But I'm happy to, if you can send me an email, I will put the link to all that for that as well. I'll just make a note to put that in as well. As I mentioned, I actually did my course with some teachers who weren't Wiradjuri, but taught on Wiradjuri Country and wanted to make their classroom experience as best it could be, particularly for their Koori students.

So thank you for that question. OK.

LUCY AMON:
It's a good point. And as we sort of shift the conversation from identity to more in the classroom in regards to sort of moving beyond very kind of textbook generic content and being able to connect with local First Nations people, Country and communities, I think it's obviously a good shift away from identity into that. And you've already mentioned that, Anita, obviously connecting out into the local sort of knowledge holders. So in what ways can we as teachers sort of build those ongoing respectful relationships with communities, knowledge holders and elders, because we know that that's not only going to enrich the students' learning, but it's going to enrich our teaching practice and our knowledge as educators.

ANITA HEISS:
That's a really good question. I think it's important to note that not every single school or place of learning is going to have the opportunity to connect with humans. So not every community is going to have Elders and so forth available to them. And it's important not to expect Aboriginal people to want to be part of whatever the relationship building you're doing in the community. I think connection can be achieved in many ways. Visiting galleries and museums, watching movies and plays, tuning into Indigenous media on every platform. Respectful engagement to me is not expecting Aboriginal people to answer your every question. And I say this from experience myself and watching my decades of my mother's work, not expecting them to attend your event or to deliver a presentation. To me, respectful connection is taking time to listen. Can we talk about truth-telling and storytelling? And we need to be considering truth listening and story listening. So it's taking time to listen, to engage with the materials that are already in the public domain, to respect the work that has been done to date in the education space.

That is, there's a lot of work that's being done that's designed to assist both the teacher and the student. I think respectful relationships are built by the teacher and the student doing the groundwork. And if I was an educator in Victoria, I would be reaching out to, firstly, the Victorian Aboriginal Education Association that represents Koori community in relation to education policy and development... policy development, I should say, and strategic programming at local, state and national levels. They also support the provision of education and training that reinforces the Koori community's cultural identity and increases awareness in the wider community of Koori culture and aspirations in education and training. I had a look at their website today. There's already a heap of material that you can download. One of the things I saw was protocols for Koori education in Victorian primary and secondary schools. I don't know if anybody has already accessed that, but there are ways... As I say, not every school is going to be able to have a physical relationship with a local Elder or a land council or relevant organisation.

But use the peak bodies that are already there to offer advice of the best way to do that in your area if you're not in the city, and so forth.

LUCY AMON:
Yeah. Thanks, Anita. And I think, like you've already mentioned, utilising what is in that public domain, it's something that I spoke about in a little just whilst you were offline, about using TEDx Talks, about using articles that have been written by First Nations people and bringing those into the classroom, because that is where our voices come from. And so I think that is also another way in which we can go about to enrich our teaching practice as well.

ANITA HEISS:
And to mix it up, like it doesn't have to be textbook. There are so many ways now because of different media and platforms to actually make it interesting for students, because that's what we want to do as well. We want them to engage. We want them to be inspired. We want them to be motivated to learn more. And it does mean we have to mix up our mode of teaching as well.

LUCY AMON:
And something that we've touched on a little bit, but I've heard or I've read, I should also say a little bit in the chat, about teaching practice. And in my experience in schools, many teachers genuinely wanted to be able to do the right thing when teaching First Nations curriculum, history and perspectives. But there was also a bit of a barrier. And that barrier is often fear of getting it wrong, very much often coming from the right place. But it does become a barrier to doing anything at all. And one of the writers in the chat mentioned the word courage. And I think that that is such a great sort of word to use for teachers to have the courage to be able to suggest materials, to be able to suggest concepts in regard to their departments, to their teams, whoever they might be working with. So do you think teachers are waiting to feel 'expert enough' before engaging with First Nations content? And is that costing our students? And what's your perspective on this? And what advice would you give to teachers to make sure that we are continuing to move forward?

ANITA HEISS:
I hear that also, Lucy, people being afraid of making mistakes or getting it wrong. And sometimes it's not... I feel like if they're not afraid of getting it wrong for the student, they're afraid of getting it wrong for being reprimanded. And I absolutely understand the fear of getting things wrong. But I don't think fear is an excuse for not working towards the end goal, which is for me... And for many of us, which is truth-telling in the classroom. And hand on heart, I can say that I'm anxious every single time I enter a lecture theatre because I want to be the best educator I can be. But it doesn't stop me doing what I do. And I acknowledge, as I did earlier, that I'm a lifelong learner, as many of you will probably consider yourselves as well. And that means that, you know, we'll never be experts. I don't think I'm an expert, but we can teach with heart and soul and passion and respect and guide our students in the right direction for their further education. I think if you walk into a classroom with those values, with values of wanting to do the right thing, and you're using, and I cannot stress this enough, that you are making use of the scaffolding that is already there around Indigenous education, which is designed to support you.

So, I think, I mean, my goal always with, for example, we're teaching notes with books like Dirrayawadha, is to provide the scaffolding for the teacher to feel comfortable going into the classroom to teach that content. And that is the responsibility, that is the responsibility of the author and the publishing house to make sure you have that. But I feel like it's interesting you use that word courage. And can I tell you, that made me feel a little bit sad that educators have to feel courageous to go into a classroom and to teach something. But I know it's because most of us went through the education system not being trained. We still have people leaving teaching degrees, having not necessarily done one subject on Indigenous studies. So, I mean, I, personally, believe that every single student that graduates in any degree in a tertiary institution in Australia should have done one unit on Indigenous studies 101. And I understand that the education system is also failing educators in this space.

But I feel if you go in with respect and ethics, and you're using our perspectives, you're already ahead of the game, for want of a better term.

LUCY AMON:
Yeah. And the message that I often gave my fellow educators when I was in the school setting was, we all make mistakes, we all might say something, we always learn, and it's OK. It's also OK to say that I don't know. And that is OK to say to your students in your classroom, I don't know, let's go and find that out together.

ANITA HEISS:
I was just about to say, when I started teaching a million years ago, I said, the reality is we all walk into our classrooms knowing more than the students straight up. But if you're asked something, and you don't know, just say, great, take that on notice, and we'll talk about that next class. So, I think fear, I think it can be absolutely debilitating. But I imagine that every single person that has logged on today has a desire to do the right thing moving forward.

LUCY AMON:
Absolutely. And Alex in the chat box has mentioned a fantastic resource. Again, please jump onto the ABC's 'You Can't Ask That'. It is very real, as Alex has mentioned, but it's also very funny, and I agree. And my students loved watching that because I love seeing Baker Boy, as mentioned by Alex. Baker Boy's in a very, very young, early days Baker Boy. But that is a fantastic resource in regards to the episodes from First Nations people, and very much breaking down some of those stereotypes that exist, and being able to put a face, you know, a face to a response there. So, we will move into as we have started to explore in a lot of depth today, embedding First Nations perspectives is not simply about adding more content. It's really about creating opportunities to learn with and from First Nations peoples. And as educators, recognising our responsibility to reflect on how our practice can make space for First Nations voices to guide and shape our learning in the classroom. And probably our last question to finish on before we open the floor to more questions from our audience is, we're gonna leave you with two action prompts, and we'll bring them up on the screen shortly so that you can note them down and take away from this session.

But before we... There they are. Thank you so much to the back end. So, the two action prompts, but we really want to be able to hear Anita's perspectives on both of these as well. So, if you've got pen and paper in hand, we'll also include these in the document resource that we share with everyone. But we really want you to think about what is one action that you could take in the next term to bring more First Nations voices into your teaching and learning programmes? And Anita, I'll jump to you in a moment. And then the second one is, who could you connect with, learn from or partner with to ensure First Nations perspectives are informing your curriculum in a meaningful way? So, these are two actions we'd love for you to consider and take away to reflect and think about. But I'm gonna hand over to Anita to share her responses to both of those questions.

ANITA HEISS:
Well, I know you've only asked for... I'm gonna give you two actions to choose from for the first question. And one is to set up some kind of Aboriginal resource centre in your school. So, search out Aboriginal created resources. So, you know then you're teaching with integrity, you're supporting cultural voices, you're helping students learn through genuine community-led perspectives. You know that Aboriginal created resources are different to those that are about us. Using these resources will give children a more accurate understanding of culture, empower Aboriginal communities, strengthen respectful connections and help avoid cultural appropriation. Search out resources that are designed by professional Aboriginal educators and artists. There are those that offer cultural awareness training for educators and so forth. Subscribe to mailing lists for organisations like Magabala, AIATSIS, Austlit, Reconciliation Australia, because a well-established resource space or centre, whether it's in the library or a hub, where teachers and students and families can access materials that honour and respect Aboriginal culture will empower your whole school community, and it will support cultural safety.

So, that's the first thing. I know it's probably in all of your learning spaces, bits and pieces everywhere, but having some kind of hub would be fantastic. The next thing is, most of you will know I'm a lifetime ambassador for the Indigenous Literacy Foundation. It's a national charity of the Australian book industry, working with remote Aboriginal and Torres Islander communities across Australia with community-led publishing, culturally relevant books coming from the community, no government funding whatsoever. So, I would suggest, I would love to see on the first Wednesday of every year is Indigenous Literacy Day. I'd love your school or workplace to do a great book swap. There are a number of things you could do. You could do a great book swap, which is raising money and awareness around Aboriginal literacy, and also getting kids to talk about reading and the books that they love. In your classrooms, and lots of primary schools do this around the country, you can log into the Opera House with your class and watch the event that happens there.

There's also something called Busking for Change. You can join Lifetime Ambassadors Justine Clarke and Josh Pyke and ILF Ambassador Dobby. We're gonna watch a video if we have time. And alongside hundreds of schools across Australia. This is a six to eight week programme that builds musical literacy. It celebrates Aboriginal and Torres Islander languages and cultures and strengthens confidence through performance. This is for all students, though. So, teachers, you can register your school and turn music into really meaningful impact and teach your students the joy of charity and giving and letting them know and understand that they are being a process of making someone's reading life better. So, they're my two things that you could do.

LUCY AMON:
Fantastic. And I might take that moment, as you've obviously mentioned, Busking for Change to share a quick video to give our audience a bit of an insight into what Busking for Change looks like and is. So, let me take a moment just to share my screen so we can go ahead, and we can watch that video. Alright. Here we go.

SPEAKER:
Busking for Change is the Indigenous Literacy Foundation's musical fundraiser for early learning, primary and secondary schools celebrating Aboriginal culture.

DOBBY:
It's a great honour to host Busking for Change 2026 right here in Brewarrina. The song 'Minyan ngabangka' talks about our life here on the river in Brewarrina, Ngemba country. The song talks about what we like to do here, daily life on the river.

SPEAKER:
When I come to the river, I like to fish. I like to swim.

KELSEY IRIS:
Literacy is a really important part of all of our lives. Language has to be a part of that, and language is critical and so important to our young people, to our kids.

DOBBY:
Language is really, really important to preserve and maintain and let it keep thriving. We can keep our culture and our language alive through song. So, I hope you enjoy and sing along with us, 'Minyan ngabangka', What's in the Water?

SPEAKER:
Celebrate musical literacy and fundraise for the ILF, Busking for Change.

ANITA HEISS:
It makes me so happy and when I see these young kids, I have so much hope for the future.

LUCY AMON:
Yeah, definitely. And from a Naarm Melbourne perspective, if you're wanting to engage with language experts, the Djirri Djirri Dancers and Aunty Mandy Nicholson is someone that I could highly recommend to engage with. You know, there's more, there's lots of people that we can reach out to support that and Dobby is a superstar. I completely agree with that question, there from a note from Ruby. So, with that, we might jump into the second prompt that obviously I shared with our audience to hear your thoughts, Anita. Who could you connect with, learn from, or partner with to ensure First Nations perspectives are informing your curriculum in a meaningful way?

ANITA HEISS:
OK, I have got a long list of things which will be in the handout. But as I've mentioned before, you don't have to physically connect with individuals to have meaningful learning. As humans, we are limited resource, and I will say that no invitation to a First Nations individual to participate in something that you do at school should be no invitation to be extended without some form of compensation. It's not our job as First Nations people to educate. Our Indigeneity is a qualification in many instances because of the experience and knowledge we have, but we should not be expected to deliver or meet other expectations of us. I think that was really important to note. My suggestions for your connection include seeking out, subscribing to and partnering with First Nations educational suppliers, support their businesses and grow our communities and economies. Check out the Koori Curriculum, which is a multi-award-winning Aboriginal early childhood consultancy. They have resources and workshops.

Yarn Strong Sister is in Victoria, facilitates storytelling and arts workshops with children and hosts professional development training, provides First Nations design resources. There's a lot on their website as well. Magabala Books, as I've mentioned, many of their titles come with downloadable teaching notes for free. Australians Together, Early Childhood to Year 10. They have free resources, history, drama, maths, music, science and more. The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies has a whole lot of educational resources that you can download as well. Culture is Life has educational and curriculum resource development. Media, access, listen to, watch, read, Koori Mail, NITV, National Indigenous Times. Your local community radio station probably has a programme that goes out through the National Indigenous Radio Service. Tune in to that as well. (CROSSTALK)

LUCY AMON:
Heaps there.

ANITA HEISS:
So, Tika, yes, I'm gonna send you, I'm gonna send all the resource lists and websites and everything to Lucy and Sophie and Travis, and they're gonna send it out to everybody.

LUCY AMON:
Yeah, thank you. So, yeah, we absolutely will. We might take a moment to, before we begin to finish up, if there's any more questions from the audience, I've also, I've already read through some of our questions and I will ask Anita those questions in a moment. But I just thought a reminder that if you'd like to ask some questions through the Slido function to the bottom right of your screen, we can obviously, that's where we see what you want to know and we can ask. But I'll hit you, Anita, with the two questions that have already come through. The first question being, do you have any resources, advice or that you can share regarding First Nations and disability?

ANITA HEISS:
I'll take that on notice, and I'll put it in the handout. I'll make, I'll phone a friend tonight. How's that? Thank you.

LUCY AMON:
Again, sometimes we have to lean on other people for knowledge.

ANITA HEISS:
That's alright. Listen, we're all, we all want the same thing, right? We all want our students to have the best educational journey they can have. So, we're all on the same page. I will find something, hopefully. OK.

LUCY AMON:
Thank you. And then the other question that's come through is, we've sort of, we've spoken quite in depth about the concept of unconscious bias and stepping into the classroom. But more specifically, what are some of the stereotypes that we might unknowingly bring into the classroom? How and how can they shape the learning experience? And do we need to unlearn them? Do we need to check them? Do we need to unlearn them? How do we as educators approach that?

ANITA HEISS:
Oh, that's a big question for two minutes. I guess I'm gonna ask a rhetorical question and that is to all of you to think about, if I say to you, and I do this exercise with students and teachers and academics, I get them to brainstorm all the things that come to mind when they think of First Nations Australians. And they put that on butcher's paper. So, I would say this to you, what are all the things that come to mind to you? And I would have two lists. What are all the positive things? And what are all the negative things? And I can tell you, I did a workshop at the Wheeler Centre in Melbourne and I had a group of adults write on one side of the whiteboard all the positive things and ones on all the negative things. And I read things that I'd never even heard of or thought of that was so disturbing. So, I think you need, this is because it's very individual too because there'll be, there are, you know, there will have people, there will be people who experience, whose experiences are very different.

We talked about the subjectivity. So, I think you need to think about internally to yourself, what is it you think about that you know, that you feel uncomfortable about? And that is probably what you shouldn't be taking into the classroom. So, if you're thinking something that you know is born out of watching mainstream media, or you're looking at something on the television, rather than, it's a difference similarity thing, rather than looking at somebody and their life experience and thinking, well, oh, I would never do that, or I'm not like that. Look at that person and say, what connects me as a parent, as a child, as a worker and so forth. So, I think that's a very personal thing that you probably need to do some self-reflection in terms of what comes to mind to you when you think of blackfellas today.

LUCY AMON:
Yeah. And I think in doing that process, there's quite a lot of vulnerability that you have to engage with and allow yourself to be vulnerable in that process. Yes. Definitely.

ANITA HEISS:
I think you mentioned Growing Up Aboriginal in Australia, because there are so many stories that are related to Aboriginal people in the education system, that's a really good place to start and reading them because you might see, it's not a criticism, but you might see some of your own behaviour and thoughts in some of those stories.

LUCY AMON:
Definitely. I'm just doing a quick scan through just to see if maybe I've missed any questions. But I think we might be looking like we're nearing the end of our session, Anita.

ANITA HEISS:
Yes.

LUCY AMON:
And just before I...

ANITA HEISS:
I'm so sorry about the... I don't know what happened before.

LUCY AMON:
No, no, no, that's OK. Just checking through now. Any more questions? I don't think so. Alright. Well, with that, with the natural finish of our session, Anita, I just want to take a moment to obviously thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. I think it's fair to say that we are all on our own journey on this process, and to hear from yourself that you are not an expert just allows us the space to know that we are all on this journey together. So, it's been a really wonderful afternoon of connection for our educators on such an important topic, both from a curriculum perspective, but also from a student perspective. So, I would really love to send a heartfelt thank you to you for joining in. And I hope that everyone has taken something away from this session. We wish you well. And with that, we will make sure that the resources that have been mentioned throughout the session will be shared with everyone later on. So, thank you so much. And from my language revitalisation perspective, I would love to say yura yuray, which obviously means farewell in my Jandai language.

And Anita, is there something that you would like to share?

ANITA HEISS:
I'll say, (SPEAKING WIRADJURI LANGUAGE). So, thank you, respect and love.

LUCY AMON:
Perfect. Thank you so much. As you can see on the slide, we really value your feedback. So, if you can take a moment to scan the QR code that is on the screen, and we will gather obviously any feedback in regard to the session.